Couples Therapy Intensives in Private Practice: Seven Lessons from Irina

There is a question that surfaces for almost every therapist at some point, usually after one too many late-night progress notes or one too many fifty-minute sessions that felt like they only scratched the surface. The question is some version of: is this it? Is this what private practice is supposed to look like, week in and week out, forever?

For couples therapist Irina, the answer turned out to be no. After years of working with couples in traditional weekly sessions, she rebuilt her entire practice around occasional full-day intensives. Then she rebuilt it again when she decided every new couple would start with one. Now she runs an intensives-only practice in North Carolina, deeply rooted in Emotionally Focused Therapy, and she does it on her own terms.

Her path is not a straight line. It runs through Moscow, community mental health, three states, ABA work, a podcast that changed everything, and a training fee that was, in her words, "more than my rent." Here is what we took away from her story.

Lesson 1: You Don't Need a Calling. You Need to Start Paying Attention.

A lot of therapists carry quiet shame that they did not arrive in the field through some clarifying calling. They picked psychology because it sounded interesting. Or because they liked their intro professor. Or, in Irina's case, because it did not require math.

"Because I hate math. So that's what happened."

That is the actual origin story. And it is far more common than the heroic version we tend to tell at conferences.

What matters is not how you arrived. It is whether you keep paying attention to what fits and what does not. Irina tried community mental health. She tried schools. She tried ABA. She tried a few different states. After each one, she got more specific information about what was off.

The takeaway: You do not need a vocational calling to build a great practice. You need a willingness to notice what is not working and keep moving toward what is.

Transcript

Miranda Palmer [00:00:00]: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the starting a counseling practice success story. This is Miranda Palma here, and I'm really excited about today's guest. I've known her for now many years, and I can't believe this is the first time that we're getting to dive into her beautiful story. Irina, do you want to share just a little bit about where you're located and your website address for anyone who wants to stalk you while we're having this conversation? Sure. Irina [00:00:35]: Hello. I am in North Carolina, and my website is www.irinabakeleycounselingllc.com. i don't know why I added LLC there. I'm regretting it years ago, but here we are. I think it sounded really professional to have LLC in your website address. Miranda Palmer [00:01:01]: You know what? Some people also like, they feel like when they're doing their S Corp or what have you, they feel like, oh, I have to have that in everything, including the domain name. But you really don't. Like, a domain name is more like an email address or a phone number, and it's not a requirement. But sometimes we feel that way. And then, yeah, sometimes people are like, this will make me seem grown up. Irina [00:01:24]: That was like, a good reason maybe. I can. I can imagine. I can't imagine that this name was taken without llc, but that would be a good reason to add something else there. Miranda Palmer [00:01:37]: Yes. You have a very unique name. All right, so first question I always love to ask is in a minute or less, why did you decide to become a therapist? Irina [00:01:49]: Oh, I can do it in five seconds. Because I hate math. Miranda Palmer [00:01:55]: Yeah, there's a lot of options you have if you hate math. Besides, you know. Irina [00:01:59]: So that's what happened. I. I remember it. I was. I came to the US when I was 20, and I was. So I already finished two years of college in Moscow, and then I was in community college here, and I was trying to find a major. Then I was sitting with my mom, like, on, not zoom. Like, it was back. Irina [00:02:22]: Like Skype, I think, back then. And I was like, what I should pick? And she's like, look through the curriculum and see if there is no math. I was like, psychology doesn't have math. That sounds interesting. Why don't we do that? And I tested out of the, like, basic math, so I didn't have to take anything because already you took, like, calculus and all that stuff, like, back home. But I was not good at it, so I was like, psychologist, thought it sounds interesting. And there is no math. So Miranda Palmer [00:02:49]: that is. I think you're the first Person who I heard like, that literally was like, no, it was just like a random. And then here you are, like so many years later with a successful therapy practice. So what is it? Right? As you went through the. The process, how long did it take you from that point of choosing psychology before you were like, out as a licensed therapist? Irina [00:03:16]: Other than a licensed therapist? A few years. So I did two years. I did two years of community college, and then I had to. I moved to a different state from East Coast. I got divorced. I got married when I was 20, and then we split up. And so I was like, I want to go far away from here. So I moved to California because I always wanted to live in Santa Barbara. Irina [00:03:44]: And then I applied for colleges, but I had to be. I had to wait a year to have in state tuition, so that was my party year. And then I went to undergrad in US UCI for two years, and then I went to masters at USC for two more years. And then I think it took about two and a half years to get my license. So I don't. I'm bad at math, so I don't know. How many years were there? Miranda Palmer [00:04:16]: Maybe like seven years. Like, I mean, it adds. It does add up. Irina [00:04:21]: Yeah, yeah, something like that. But the first job from after I graduated with MSW Masters of Social Work, they promised me a supervisor, and then they didn't give me one, and I just. I pissed out like three months later. I was like, I'm not getting my hours, so I'm out. And then I met someone. I dated someone who lived back on the east coast. So I moved back on the. To the east coast for that job, and that's it. Irina [00:04:53]: I stayed there for two and a half years and then got my license. And I think somewhere I was doing in home therapy and I was listening to a lot of podcasts, and I'm pretty sure this is where I've come. I learned about you guys, like, somewhere there. I was listening to everything. Everything I could find. I could put my hand on everything I could. I was like, trying to figure out how to make it happen. So. Miranda Palmer [00:05:19]: And here you are. It was. It was probably this podcast that you listened to because we've been doing it for many, many years. Irina [00:05:27]: How long have you been doing it for? Miranda Palmer [00:05:30]: Up recently. I'm really about. I think it's been like eight years. Irina [00:05:35]: Like eight years. 20, 26. Miranda Palmer [00:05:39]: But yeah, it's been a long time that we've been doing podcasts. And I don't think. Irina [00:05:43]: I don't think you were doing it Then. But you were, you were everywhere. You, you had so many interviews and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:05:52]: All the pieces of that. Okay. So obviously as a social worker a. They don't tend to be pro private practice in social work school. And it's not something that just falls into most social workers lap. Why private practice for you? Irina [00:06:11]: Because I knew that I wanted to have a family and I knew that I am not made for 8 to 5 job. Or an office. Or an office job. I did some contract work at FEMA and I had to be there for four months from like nine to six, something like that. And I was like, fuck that. Am I supposed to wear your skin? I was like, I'm not doing that. So. Yeah, so I, I wanted something on my own. Irina [00:06:44]: My dad always had his own business and my, my mom is a cpa, so she sort of does her own thing and helps. Helps the kind of family business out. I think I come from that background where like, you don't work for someone, you make, you make something happen. And my brother and his like, yeah, my brother and my wife and my nephew and niece, they're all part of this business. So maybe, yeah, you're like, I was Miranda Palmer [00:07:20]: born and bred to be an entrepreneur. Irina [00:07:23]: Yeah. Maybe I don't. Yeah, it's. But I wasn't like, I didn't know anything about it. I wasn't, I was completely unprepared on, on how to do anything like. Yeah, yeah. After school. Like, I feel like grad school, they give you a little bit of clinical knowledge about how to do it, but that's, that's like an entry level of like how to start being a therapist, but there is nothing about like how to make it happen and how to build the practice. Miranda Palmer [00:07:53]: Yeah. How long have you been in private Practice now? Irina [00:07:57]: Since 2017. 2017. 2017. Miranda Palmer [00:08:02]: And share with everybody what your private practice looks like today. Irina [00:08:07]: Looks awesome. I do whatever I want to do. I work whenever I want to work. I work with whoever I want to work with. It's great. I mean, I were like, I. Miranda Palmer [00:08:28]: What's your niche, Irina? Irina [00:08:30]: Yeah, what's my niche? I work with couples, so I'm a couples therapist and I primarily work with couples. Maybe 20, like individuals who are struggling in relationships, but mostly couples. Miranda Palmer [00:08:45]: And why did you choose working with couples? Yeah, Irina [00:08:53]: I worked in community mental health and then I worked at a school and then I worked with like kiddos on the spectrum doing like ABA therapy and things like that. So when I, by the time I got my license, everything I've done on my resume. I was like, I don't want to do any of that. So I don't know what I want to do, but I don't want to do that. And then I listened to a podcast where Dr. Sue Johnson was interviewed and I learned about EFT. And I thought, this sounds really awesome. And I looked it up and There was a four day externship and my area in D.C. Irina [00:09:37]: like coming up in two weeks. I had nothing going on. Like, I had all the time in the world. I was like, great. And there was them, like, very expensive because I wasn't used to, like, spending money on my business, on myself, on marketing, on training. I was like, it better be good. It was very expensive. And I remember I said that when the first, like, how are. Irina [00:09:59]: You know, like, you know, you have to say your name. I was like, this is expensive. I better. I hope it's good. And it was amazing. It was amazing. And then I just kind of kept going and learning and learning. And I did core skills with them and I kept going. Irina [00:10:16]: And I still actually, I'm doing like a second year of Advanced eft. It's like four weekends a year, Stage one, and then four weekends a year. Stage two was like this. Two amazing advanced practitioners. It's like a bunch of us doing it. Like, it's just, there's so much to learn there. And like, I love the community and I love. So the couples kind of fell on my lap and I don't know, I like it. Irina [00:10:41]: I really enjoy. I really enjoy it. Miranda Palmer [00:10:44]: You know what's interesting? You say like, it fell in your lap, but I don't think that's true, like, in a good way. I think there is. I think there are a lot of therapists who are listening to this that feel the same way that you do. Like, oh my gosh, all these things that I've done, I didn't like them. And. And maybe they feel guilty or they feel like they should like them or like, maybe if I had more training or this or that versus, like, the trusting of the intuition of, like, this is great information. I'm sure some of that pops up with the couples that you're working with that have kids on the spectrum or that the kids are doing aba. Like, there's information and these things that sort of like, add to our benefit of what we're being like, pointed to. Miranda Palmer [00:11:32]: But when we, like, don't trust our knowing that something isn't right for us, then we don't expand into, like, what is right. And I think it's really Interesting in particular that you were like, I listened this podcast and I was really, like, there was something about it that pulled me. And I never spent money, but I did spend money. And I was fearful about it, but I spent it anyway. Tell me about. You're right. Irina [00:12:01]: You're right. I think, like, because I listen to so many different things, like, nothing else pulled my attention as, like, as the ft. Yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:12:09]: What. What do you think? And this is like, a weird question, and probably because I know you, I'm asking this question that I. I don't think I've ever asked anyone on a podcast. For you, when you. When you feel something intuitively, where you're like, this is the thing I need to do. Where do you feel that in your body? Like, how do you know when something is like, oh, that's interesting, versus, like, no, I'm supposed to do this thing, even though it's nothing I've thought about before. It's a whole lot of money. It seems like this, like, crazy diversion or whatever. Miranda Palmer [00:12:45]: Like, how do you know when you know? Irina [00:12:48]: I don't know. I don't know. So I just go for it. I think. I. I'm just. I. I take risks. Irina [00:12:54]: Like, I. I am not a cautious person who is like, oh, I have to think about it five times. I'm. I'm. I'm impulsive. Like, I think my ADHD helps me. There I was like, yeah, I'm doing that. And like, if it doesn't work, I'll figure it out, I'm sure. Irina [00:13:08]: Like, it's. It's. It's. It's somewhere. But it, it's just kind of propels me, like, yeah, if. Just. And I just. I don't say. Irina [00:13:17]: I don't take. No. Like, if I wanna. If I want something and I'm gonna make it happen, and I just. I just go there. Miranda Palmer [00:13:24]: Okay, I love this. I love this line. And you can be like, I hate this at any point. We can, whatever. But you say that you're impulsive. Have you ever, like, taken a class impulsively, that you were like, oh, I hated that. That wasn't for me. Irina [00:13:40]: It's been years since I've taken a class that impulsively. Because everything is so, you know, for what I, like, already. I've done a lot of other things in life impulsively. That was not for me. Yeah, a lot of choices. Miranda Palmer [00:13:58]: But that's it. But. But that's interesting, like, in your. Like, at a certain point in your practice, in your career, like, because I can definitely see the like impulsivity of like it just doesn't have math. So I'm gonna do psychology. Like that. Irina [00:14:13]: Yeah, I say it like that. But also like I, like I grew up, you know, reading quotes, like books with quotes. You know, I've always had this like love for language. Just like words and language. So. And without math maybe that kind of like that's that they're like the art of therapy, right? Is the words, like when you say something and the client is like, oh, like you can see the light bulb, right? Like that's like that's. That's so precious Miranda Palmer [00:14:47]: when they make that internal connection and suddenly something is unlocked when they find the word, right? As like someone who's multilingual, right? That space of like knowing that like there's a magic when you unlock a word, a phrase, like a knowing. And it's not that you know, like, you know, hello, is Hola. It's that. It's just Hola. Like it's just whatever the thing is, right. I don't know any, any Russian. But like the face of like when you unlock it in your being, there's a. It's like a whole nother part of your brain that you're accessing. Irina [00:15:28]: It's like I, I say it and they unlock it, you know, like it just matches what they knew. And it's just the right content and environment that I was like, oh, the blossoming is happening. Like there is nothing new. There is nothing new, I'm saying. But it's cool to watch. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Miranda Palmer [00:15:46]: And then you've been doing couples work like you said, 80% of the time. And you've been doing it in like from an EFT model in a traditional weekly setting for a long time. Irina [00:15:59]: Yes. Miranda Palmer [00:16:00]: Had like fill up. And then you made some changes recently. Tell us about that. Irina [00:16:05]: Yeah, well, I've, you know, it wasn't so sudden. I was still in dc, so that was even before I started working with you guys together. Like in EFT World intensives, like are more common, right? Intensives. And so. But they're like. Back then there was no intensives. There were like they hold called like hold me tight workshops. Right. Irina [00:16:32]: So like a two day couples, like six couples together. It's kind of workshop. There are several therapists and like they split up and they talk about their issues like they can get help but it's still like a group setting. And so I have a. I've always wanted like something, something like that, but I didn't want to like teach six couples And I attended couple, like I volunteered and I was like, oh, that's super cool, right? And then when you volunteer, they give you like their curriculum and like what they do and all the exercises. And I was like, oh, this is really cool. And then I sort of adapted it to do like an intensive, like a one day, six hour intensive. So that was like in the beginning of my practice, really. Irina [00:17:15]: And I would maybe do like one a year because I've never did like, you know, one, you know, when everything changed with intensives, when like I was, I would do maybe one once a year. And then you helped me with the script, with the intake script on adding this question of, hey, how quickly do you want to see results? How much time do you have, how out or in you are? When I would bring that question in, they're like, oh, I want it yesterday. You're like, all right. So there is this option of the intensive. So that's when everything shifted initially. Then I started like maybe doing like one a quarter, maybe once every six months and one a quarter. And then I started requiring all couples to begin with a one day intensive. And then we would do weekly. Irina [00:18:06]: So we did that. And then when I studied that and we saw like how amazing it was, I was like, why? I wanna, like this is all I want to do. I don't want to do weekly. And then it was like, you know, combined with running out of time and not having enough time and then the zoom sessions, because I was doing all virtual and it was zoom sessions and they're like in between pickups and drop offs and like, and like work calls and like it's hard to drop in. And I was asking them like, okay, let's, let's drop in, you know, and it's like 15 minutes, you know, let's check in. How. How are you? Like, then I need like 10 minutes to wrap them up. So we really have like 25 minutes of deep work, which is not enough with three people in the room. Irina [00:18:50]: So then I thought, OK, this is what I want to do. And then I talked to Becca, the accountability coach. Yeah. But I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. I want something, but I don't know what. And she's like, what do you want? Like, what commitment do you want? I was like, I don't know if I want to. Like, she's like, maybe you want to do bi weekly. Irina [00:19:07]: I was like, no, I don't want to commit to bi weekly. She's like, you do want to. Maybe one. You Know once a month I'm like, no. I was like, I want to do intensives. Only intensives. So. And then you helped me refocus and change everything. Irina [00:19:21]: And so. Yeah. And then. So now it's February. I think I've decided like September last year. No, not September. Maybe like August last year. And then by October, I got an office and October was. Irina [00:19:39]: October was the last. November was the last month. I told everyone that this was the last month. I gave everyone three months notice. So it's going to be last month. I'm doing it this way. This is the only way I'm going to be working from now on. Some people pissed out that you don't want it. Irina [00:19:53]: Some people graduated and some people stayed with me. Miranda Palmer [00:20:00]: What has it been like to like, trust your knowing and intuition and really lean into what is working for real couples? Irina [00:20:10]: Yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:20:11]: In real life? Irina [00:20:12]: Yes. Miranda Palmer [00:20:13]: In a real way. On like a timetable that worked for them and for you. Like, what has it been like to like, really trust your knowing of all of that? Irina [00:20:21]: It feels like it. It gave me like such a freedom to like a validation of like trusting myself and taking risks and then pivoting when you need to. Right. Like I think before, I'm always like, I tend to want, you know, as we, most humans are. Like, we want guarantees and we want to know what's around the corner and we want the familiar and all that. When I, like, as I was doing more intensive work and every couple living like feeling so much hopeful, like, they come in like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to be together. And then they live like, oh my God, Like, I can see. Irina [00:21:12]: I have hope. I can see. I can. I can see why we're stuck. I understand more. I don't see you as a bad, as a bad person. Like, they can breathe again. Like, I mean, that's like just like so I, like, I. Irina [00:21:33]: Last week I had such an amazing. I had new couple, two days, Tuesday, Wednesday, Wednesday night. I couldn't sleep. I slept zero minutes. I was so fucking high. I was so high on that session. I came home and I was like, ah, this is so good. This is so good. Irina [00:21:53]: Like, I couldn't wind down. I did not sleep. I sent them like an email at 3am I was like, this is what we talked about. This is. I want to let you know, like, because I'm also trying to figure out like, how to hold on to those insights and like remind them once a week or like once every two weeks or something like that. Like at least, like, a week before they come back in, like, hey, this is where we were last time. So it's just. I'm, like, flying from just their breakthroughs. Irina [00:22:21]: And every couple, not every, but a lot of couples tell me, like, wow. And one couple last week that I did weekly with them for probably, like, six months, and then they did intensives, and now they're doing only intensives. And he said, like, wow, I don't know. There is no way we would have been able to do what we did today. You spent, like, three and a half hours on her, and there is no way she would be able to tell me what happened. Like, I understand so much more now. Like, I understand why this works. And I was like, yes. Irina [00:22:53]: Can you tell fucking everyone? Can you go and tell everyone? Miranda Palmer [00:22:59]: It is an interesting thing, right? Like, we. Like, there's. There's all these things. Like, there's. There are people that are listening to this that are going. I don't even know why I'm listening to this, because I never want to see couples. Couples are the worst. Like, I don't. Miranda Palmer [00:23:12]: Like, God, they're so angry and so miserable. They already waited six years after they knew there was a problem before they came in for help. Like, we know what all the research says, and we know, like, traditionally, outside of. Outside of eft, but, like, traditional marriage therapy, the results are not good, y'. Irina [00:23:31]: All. Miranda Palmer [00:23:31]: Like, we have not been doing a good job as, like, as a career as, like, a group of individuals. And EFT came in with some great research and some great, like, validation of, like, here's what's needed to, like, really transform couples. And right when you. Even when you have something that works, when you have a group of people that are, like, on the edge, like, that are at their, like, breaking point to stay, like, hey, just give us six months of, like, while they're already, like, in the pain spiral and the shame spiral. Like, it's a. It's a really big ask. Irina [00:24:12]: It is. Miranda Palmer [00:24:13]: To your point. I feel very similarly about that as, like, with emdr of, like, the, like, opening of a session and the closing of a session and, like, the transition place, that 25 minutes is not a lot of time to get work done and that, like, in and out versus actually being able to take a chunk of time. And I noticed for my own healing and transformation, like, that's what I needed. I needed more time and space. I'm too guarded to, like, really, like, drop in and get down to the underlying defenses for, like, the traditional therapy model, you know, beyond Just, you know, crying, like a little cry. Crying my tears out, but I'm not getting to, like, movement. Irina [00:24:59]: Yeah, yeah. There is no revision, you know, because. And EFT is amazing because it's so non. Pathologizing. Right? It really helps me. It really helps me to see your problem as just a protection, right? Like, as opposed to, like, oh, don't do this. Like, a lot of couples come to me like, I'm their therapist number 2, 3, 4, 5. They were like, we didn't have a good experience because he told me, like, therapist told me to divorce him or her. Irina [00:25:30]: Or, like, he's the problem or he's a narcissist, right? And all these things. And like, even individual. Especially individual therapists, right, who don't have both people and they say so many things to the partner and then they Both partners who have individual therapists come together. And like, my therapist said, you're an asshole. My therapist said, you're a bitch. Right? And then it's like, it's really hard. And then I come in and I was like, I know both of you, and I know your hearts, and I see the goodness in you. And I know why you yell because you hurt and because she's important to you. Irina [00:26:03]: And I know why you shut down because you want, you know, to protect the relationship against escalation. That's. And they were like, yeah, yeah. And then they come down and then we do the work, and then we, you know, kind of help them to have this, you know, like, healing mismatch, right? Where, like, a partner. They were like, I go away because I always thought that you're gonna, you know, person. People who leave who love me, they're gonna leave. And now my partner is here, who is not leaving, who is staying here while you. You show up with all your imperfections and you change that story. Irina [00:26:45]: And they were like, wow. And then you do that 10 times and like, it. It shifts. It really. It really shifts and that. So it's not thinking brain problem solving. I statements. Like, it's real subcortical deep brain stuff where we, like, relearn that this is safe, you know, opening up and talking about big feelings as safe and. Irina [00:27:14]: And all the things. So it's like. It's some. It's EFTs, if TFT is just wonderful in that. And like. And it's so. And. And I think it's like, the. Irina [00:27:28]: There's so much to learn, you know? And like, the. There. I think the. I used to be like, you can. You can be certified in whatever modality and you can keep. And you can, you can do it fine or you can. Like, I don't like fine. I don't like fine. Irina [00:27:48]: So, like, I do monthly, I pay monthly for consultants that, like, more advanced than me and that they, like, they watch my videos and then they help me. And, like, I don't feel as alone in it as well. And, like, that makes me love my job because, like, I am effective and I'm good. And if I am stuck and lost, you know, my person be like, what are you doing? Like, let's, let's, let's, let's do. And then I come to the session, I was like, hold on. Like, I did. I did the wrong thing. Like, let's do a redo. Irina [00:28:17]: And they are so appreciative of it. Like, they love that. Like, I take time to think about them and then we do it again because I got lost in content. And like, sometimes when they get too angry, I'm like, hold on, I lost you 10 minutes ago. Right? Miranda Palmer [00:28:31]: Yeah, But I. I think that that piece, right there's so much that's. That's in there to, like, unpack of what you just said. That is like a dual process, right? The process of what's happening with our clients and our ability to, like, be present with the process of what's happening and to, like, really be with what is and isn't working without getting flooded and shutting down. And I think there's a lot of us that when we went to our supervisors early in the process and we went, hey, I don't know what to do. Our supervisors maybe shut us down more or said, well, then just refer out, like, they didn't have the skill level to help us learn how to do repair or whatever the process is. Or we worked in environments where we felt like we would be punished or fired or we would be demoted or not promoted if we were, like, honest about. Irina [00:29:37]: Yeah, I don't know, needing support. Miranda Palmer [00:29:40]: Right. Like, I. I tell this story a lot, but it's like, I got threatened because I asked for supervision, because people were. They were not providing. They weren't providing supervision at the psychiatric hospital that I was working at, which is crazy, like, high needs. And they were not providing appropriate. Irina [00:30:07]: They didn't have, like, they didn't have resources or they. Miranda Palmer [00:30:10]: So what they would do is, like, they would be like, well, technically you just need an hour of supervision. So we would go into a room during lunch to do extra as a group, and then a psychologist would put in a cassette tape of a 90 minute like talk and just like for us to listen to. We have like crazy cases and because we're seeing people in milieu and like, you know, 30 to 40 of our 40 hours is all with clients. Right. It was not the appropriate ratio of what was required for licensing. So people were not being able to, they said like they were not able to count their hours. But like legally from a liability standpoint, it isn't just about counting hours. It's also about. Miranda Palmer [00:31:03]: This is the ratio of supervision you need as a pre licensed therapist to whatever. Irina [00:31:07]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:31:09]: Okay. But back to this, this place. Right. Of we get into these scenarios where we learn for various reasons not to ask for help. Irina [00:31:19]: Yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:31:20]: Not to dig in with our clients. Not to understand how to have conversations about outcomes, not how to check in. Not feeling like we have permission to change the system if the system isn't working. Right. Like you're describing that space of like, wow, I'm doing this one to one individual work and I'm getting great outcomes and I wanted to get better outcomes. And so I gave myself permission to like, I'm going to give people the option of an intensive. What does that feel like? No, you know what, I'm going to actually require an intensive. What does that do to my outcomes? Oh, actually I'm only going to work in intensives. Miranda Palmer [00:32:04]: What does that do to my outcomes? And that space of again, having a community around you to support you in those transitions, having clinical supervision around that and clinical consultation so that it's not something that you're just like, well, I needed to make more money so I just did this thing or like it just whatever. You're like really being thoughtful and intentional. Irina [00:32:27]: Yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:32:28]: And really checking in and connected with your clients. Like all of that like, oh, and I think specifically there's been a big transition in this work and a lot of people got therapy during the pandemic and a lot of people got ineffective therapy. In some cases they got just a supportive person to talk to, but they did not get transformational, like, whoa, what needs to happen? Kind of experience of therapy. And so people that are continuing to go, I want therapy in my life, a lot of those individuals are not looking for a therapy meal, they're looking for an outcome. And that can make us feel really uncomfortable when we're not willing to be with people in that like deep desire. And we go, well, that's not, therapy's about, it's not about a guarantee. It's not about an outcome. No guarantees, no outcomes. Miranda Palmer [00:33:28]: But also it should be about Something, Yeah, it should be about something. If you're in a relationship like you should, whether your relationship continues or not, you should leave the therapy space being like, I understand myself and my partner better. I can be in my presence. Like, there should be like a transformation from that experience that you are changed. Otherwise, like, what is the point? Irina [00:33:55]: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Introspection, I would hope would be the biggest gift that you can get from any time you work on anything. Right. Because I think introspection is one if not one of the most important things for everything. Miranda Palmer [00:34:15]: I think, I think it's. Maybe there's a. Like, maybe 10 years ago would have said that and now I think it's embodiment. I think there's a lot of people that are very in their head. They have a lot of understanding about their quirks and foibles. Irina [00:34:32]: Sure. Yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:34:33]: It's in this very like disembodied way. And there's this. I don't remember. I wish I remembered who it was. It was a clinical supervisor, a therapist. And they said, you know what happens when you separate the mind from the body. Irina [00:34:47]: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. There is this quote I use sometimes. I don't know, maybe I'll not remember it. I haven't read it written down. Like, Insights do not live to transformation, but transformation can sometimes lead to insights. Right. So, yeah, so like we all know, right, what's better, but then like doing it and feeling it and, and going, going for it. Yeah, for sure. Irina [00:35:21]: Yes, you're right. Like always. You are right to change my life philosophy. I think that. I think I am in the process of figuring it out personally, the embodiment piece. And as I am like adding ketamine and brain spotting and all this like body based things. So I think like, I can take my clients as far as I've taken myself. So like here I am trying to figure out and what I know. Irina [00:35:54]: I do that and then when I know more, I will take them with me. Yeah, yeah. Miranda Palmer [00:35:59]: What would be your advice for someone else who is like listening your story? Maybe they're working with couples too. What would be your biggest piece of advice to another couple's therapist who's like, I, I want that too. Like, I, I want to really like, trust my own knowing and I want to be really great. I want to have a successful practice. I want to be able to work in a way that's most effective, whether that's intensives or not. But like, I want to be able to do that and create that with Confidence. Irina [00:36:33]: I would say investing in business coaching would be number one thing. I think working with someone who has done it and whom you trust and who can get you there, like, you don't have to recreate the wheels. Like, like, you don't have to figure it out. Right. Everything I've, I, I. Everything I've kind of accomplished and have done is because you and Kelly, like, guided me through it. I would probably have gotten it on myself, you know, on my own, but, like, 20 years later, maybe. Yeah, right. Irina [00:37:18]: It's just. It takes time. It takes, like, a long time. I would, like, have to retire if I have to figure it out. Miranda Palmer [00:37:25]: So, you know what's interesting? I thought for sure you were going to say that, like, hey, get really good training. Like, be really good at. Irina [00:37:33]: Well, and that too, well, yeah, investment. So I think, like, my answer is investment. Yeah. It's like, you can be really good, and if you don't know how to market yourself and how, like, no one is going to know about you, you know, like, there are a lot of therapists who are, like, not good, but they're really good at marketing and they're, like, known. And there are a lot of people who are, like, amazing, but they don't know anything about SEO and, and keywords. And so they were like, I talked to them. They're like, what are you talking about? Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Right. Irina [00:38:02]: And like, they are. They think like, this is. This is it. So I think investment. Like, I mean, when I first started working with you guys, like, the, the fee was, like, more than my, my rent, right? And so I was like, there's no way, you know what, what I was thinking about this morning? Like, I, like, back in 2016, I had my daughter in 2019. 2018, I started working with you. 2018, like, in a, you know, like, beyond. Beyond their boot camp, like, 101, right. Irina [00:38:34]: With, like, my awesome year and all that. And I remember, like, I scheduled an appointment with Kelly and then I canceled it. I was like, this is too much. Like, I cannot do it. And then there was this Russian girl from Virginia beach, and I was in D.C. and she had some. I don't know, I met her through the bootcamp and she had some dance thing in D.C. i was like, come stay with me. Irina [00:38:57]: So she came. I don't remember her name. And then I told her. I was like, I canceled it. Like, I can't. And she was like, you know, three sessions will pay. Three sessions or four sessions a month will Pay this fee. I was like, fuck. Irina [00:39:12]: So I, like, cancel. I again, scheduled it. I scheduled it with you, I think, and then. Oh, no, with scale it. And then you were available, so I started working with. So, like, I, you know, I missed. It was like, I have one spot left and whatever. So that was it, like, because I almost backed out. Irina [00:39:27]: And since then, every time we do accountability, you know, sessions or, like, you send me, you know, ask me, like, you know, like, how long you're going to be working with us or what do you need more, like. And, like, what, you know, when do you think you're going to, like, not need extra help? I'm like, never. Like, as long as I'm growing and learning, I feel like I'm pivoting every year. You know, like I said in my practice. And then I had. I had to have help, and then I had a kid, and then I had to pivot and I needed help, and then I had. And then I went back and I was like, great. And then I had another kid, and then, like, I lost everything again. Irina [00:39:59]: Right? And I had to rebuild. And then I was like, oh, now that I actually can sleep and I have, like, capacity to think. I actually want to do what I want to do, and I don't want to do this, and I want to do it this way, and this is what's working. So I feel like from now on, like, it's just, like, you always something that is. No, I don't. I don't know if it's just me or, like, just how I look at it. Like, there is always something to look forward to and continue on growing, and I don't want to do it alone. Like, I don't want to do it alone. Irina [00:40:27]: And, like, I would rather buy, like, less shit and, like, and. But, like, feel good, you know, because every time I talk to you, I talk to Kelly, you know, like, all these people I met. Casey is my friend. Like, we go for walks. You know, she was the one who, like, got me to my office back in the day when I moved. There are a couple other people. There is Christina Kennedy, like, that I met through bootcamp. I'm like, I love her. Irina [00:40:53]: Like, I don't even. Like, I've seen, like, her twice on Zoom. Like, we talk, we text, like, once a year, but it's like, we are best friends. Like, it's like, we haven't, you know, like, you know, it hasn't been a year. And, like, I. We talk about parenting, and, like, it's amazing. And I feel like like, where else. Like, where else would I get this community and. Irina [00:41:12]: And this guidance? So I'm not going anywhere. It's been like, 10 years or something. Miranda Palmer [00:41:18]: Thank you. Sorry. Not meant to be a plug for Irina [00:41:21]: what we do, but this is the investment in that. In that. Miranda Palmer [00:41:25]: Yeah. But I do think that place of, like, wherever you get it, whether it's with us or not, like, this place of, like, we need community. We need to be known. Like, there's a different level that I can do as a coach who's been working with you. Like, how much it would take for us to build trust and to, like, get you to the next whatever in 2018 is very different than now. Like, we have built trust where if you say, how do I do this? And I give you, like, a hey, here's the big thing, you'll be like, you know, maybe you say F word, but you're like, I trust you. I know. Like, I'm gonna. Miranda Palmer [00:42:02]: Okay. Irina [00:42:03]: It takes me time. It takes me time to trust. Like, I don't know if you remember, but the first year we worked, like, six months in, I was like, this is not working. Miranda Palmer [00:42:10]: Yeah. Irina [00:42:11]: I don't like this. You're like, what do you mean? Like, I'm giving you everything. And I was like, I don't. I think it was like, I wasn't trusting, right? Like, I was like, I don't know you. Like, what do you like, I know. I know you, but it's like, also, like, so, like, it takes time. Miranda Palmer [00:42:22]: I'm not sure about this. And I, like, we were like. We're, like, in it. Like, what do you need to, like, feel this thing? And then you actually went and you're like, I think maybe I needed Kelly. And so you did a year with Kelly of, like, a coach. Like, I think it just wasn't a match with Miranda. Irina [00:42:38]: They change, right, Depending on, like, because Kelly is Dexter Therapy and you're, like, so business. Like, that's how I see it, you know, like, just like, it's different way. And it's like, whatever kind of. Miranda Palmer [00:42:49]: And it's hilarious because different people will describe us differently. Other people describe me, and they're like, oh, Miranda is, like, the really soft one. And, like, Kelly's all business. So, like, every. Irina [00:43:01]: They're like, Kelly doesn't, like. I know. Like, she. Like, she. What she likes, you know, like, all about kind of this. And, like, she doesn't. You know, she would. She would be focusing on different things. Irina [00:43:15]: And, like, I. It's. It's. It's all coming from that, like, knowing as well. Like, you know, like, sometimes it comes a problem to you. Like, that's. That's how it's different, I think, from like, an amazing coach to, like, and okay, a good coach, where, like, you come with the problem and they give you a solution to you. I come up with a problem, you're like, but why do you even have the problem? Like, I think. Irina [00:43:33]: I think we have to look here. Like, it's not even about this. I'm like, oh, right. Like, it's not like it's. It's so diff. It's so different. I don't know how to. How to describe it Miranda Palmer [00:43:47]: that we get to. I know we're. We're out of time, but it is something when we're especially over deep knowing. Like, there's definitely intuition. We've been doing this for 15 years, like, over almost 20 years. Like, so, like, we know that piece, but also, like, the more trust is built up, more like, we know you and the patterns that we can, like, go under. And so then we can fast forward a lot of, like, little distractions. Irina [00:44:11]: So another thing I want to ask just about the community. You're saying, like, community is important. It's like, community is important, but community that you can you. Anywhere is different from your community because, like, your community, like, you, like, the people you know, they're all on the same page in terms of, like, charge. Charge for good, valuable work. Yeah, right. Like here, if I go and I just talk to this person down the line, I was like, you know how much I'm charging? And they were like, why? What? It's a very different community. Miranda Palmer [00:44:43]: Oh, my gosh. All right, I have to wrap this up because I have to run into a thing, but thank you so much. Inspired by Irina. Go and check out the show notes. Go check it out. If you're in a relationship as a therapist and you've been looking for a good couples therapist to, like, go do some intensive work with. It's. It's arena when she has actual openings. Miranda Palmer [00:45:03]: And. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate you. You're amazing. Keep helping people in an impactful way. Irina [00:45:11]: Thanks so much.

Lesson 2: The System That Did Not Fit Was Pointing at Something

Irina knew early that traditional employment was not for her. "I knew that I wanted to have a family, and I knew that I am not made for an 8-to-5 job. Or an office job."

That clarity did not arrive as a five-year plan. It arrived as friction. Every job she tried felt like the wrong shape. Rather than treat that friction as a personal failing, she treated it as data.

This is the part we want to underline. We talk to therapists every week who think they are broken because they cannot make agency life work, or because they keep burning out in group practice, or because the "build a six-figure caseload" advice from social media makes their nervous system shut down. They are not broken. They are clinicians whose actual life and brain, and values were never going to fit those structures.

The takeaway: When something keeps not working, get curious about what the friction is pointing at. The misfit is usually the clue.

Lesson 3: Niche Reveals Itself Through Curiosity, Not Strategy

Irina did not sit down and pick couples work as her niche. She heard about Emotionally Focused Therapy on a podcast, looked up a local training, and signed up.

"The fee was, like, more than my rent." Irina Bakeley

She signed up anyway. The training "was amazing." From there, the rest unfolded: ongoing EFT training, advanced externships, core skills, consultation with more experienced clinicians, and a practice that gradually reorganized itself around the work she actually loved.

We see this pattern over and over with the therapists we coach. The niche question rarely gets solved by brainstorming. It gets solved by paying attention to what lights you up, then following that thread far enough that the niche becomes obvious.

The takeaway: You do not have to pick a niche before you can take a step. Take the step toward what is calling you, and the niche will catch up.

Lesson 4: Intensives Changed the Work

In 2017, Irina's practice looked like most couples therapy practices: weekly fifty-minute sessions. Over time, she started adding intensives. Then she started preferring them. Eventually, she made a structural decision that changed everything: every new couple in her practice begins with a full-day intensive before any weekly work.

This is not a small shift. It rewrites the intake conversation, the pacing of clinical work, and the kind of transformation that is possible in the room.

"How quickly do you want to see results?" That became part of her intake. Many of her couples wanted to move faster than weekly sessions allowed. They wanted depth. They wanted breakthroughs. They wanted to use therapy as a real intervention, not a maintenance subscription.

We hear from a lot of couples therapists who are tired. Tired of starting over every week. Tired of trying to do deep attachment work in forty-five minutes between school pickups. Tired of watching couples cycle through the same patterns because there is never enough time in one session to actually shift them.

Intensives are not the answer for every clinician or every client. But they are an example of something we care a lot about at zynnyme: your business model has to match the kind of clinical work you actually want to do. If the model fights the work, the work loses.

The takeaway: Look at your current model and ask whether it is helping or hindering the clinical outcomes you care about. Then consider what would change if you redesigned around the outcome instead of the format.

Lesson 5: The Investment Pays for Itself in Sessions, Not Years

When Irina was first considering a serious business investment, the fee felt impossible. Her bootcamp friend said something that has stuck with us ever since.

"Three sessions or four sessions a month will pay this fee."

That is the math nobody teaches in grad school. The cost of real coaching, real training, real community looks scary when you are staring at the dollar amount. It looks completely different when you run the actual numbers on what that investment opens up in caseload, in confidence, in clinical depth.

Irina put it more bluntly: "Everything I've kind of accomplished and have done is because you and Kelly guided me through it. I would probably have gotten it on my own, but, like, 20 years later, maybe."

We are not sharing this to flatter ourselves. We are sharing it because the alternative for most therapists is years of figuring it out alone, burning out at agencies in the meantime, and arriving at the right model a decade after they could have. The shortcut is not a hack. It is having people next to you who have already walked the road.

The takeaway: When you are weighing a business investment, do the actual math. Then weigh the cost of figuring it out alone against the cost of real support. The numbers usually point clearly in one direction.

Lesson 6: Therapy Should Be Transformative or It Is Not Really Therapy

This was the moment in the conversation where Irina's whole clinical worldview came into focus.

"Whether your relationship continues or not, you should leave the therapy space being like, I understand myself and my partner better. There should be a transformation from that experience that you are changed. Otherwise, what is the point?" Irina Bakeley

That orientation, transformation over maintenance, is exactly what so many of us got into this field to do. It is also exactly what gets stripped away in insurance-driven, productivity-quota, fifty-minute-hour models that treat therapy as a renewable subscription rather than a meaningful intervention.

We notice the same principle applies to building a practice. A practice should change something for the person running it. Not just be maintainable. Not just survivable. Actually transformative for your life, your finances, your nervous system, and the clients you get to serve at your best.

The takeaway: If your clinical work or your business does not feel like it is moving anything, that is a signal worth listening to. Something in the structure can usually shift.

Lesson 7: Find the Community That Normalizes Growth

Toward the end of the conversation, Irina named something that we think about a lot.

"Community is important, but community that you can find anywhere is different from your community. The people you know, they're all on the same page in terms of charging for good, valuable work." Irina Bakeley

There are a lot of therapist communities. Most of them will not understand why you want to grow, why you want to charge fees that reflect your actual expertise, why you want to invest in advanced training, or why you want a practice that funds the kind of life you actually want.

Find the community that does. Not the one that performs scarcity. Not the one that treats ambition as a character flaw. The one that normalizes the things you are working toward.

The takeaway: Your peer group sets your ceiling. Choose carefully.

Your Next Step: Build the Practice You Actually Want

Irina had a series of moments where she paid attention to what was not working, listened to what was lighting her up, and gave herself permission to build something that fit. Sometimes that meant making impulsive decisions. Sometimes it meant investing in coaching that felt like a stretch. Most of the time, it meant trusting her clinical and personal wisdom over the script she had been handed.

Twenty years in this field, and we keep watching the same story play out. The therapists who build practices they love are not the ones with the cleanest roadmap. They are the ones willing to start, evolve, and trust their own intuition along the way.

If you are sitting with a question about your niche, your model, your fees, or whether intensives might fit your work, take what resonated from Irina's story. Come back to it. And remember that every practice that works for the person running it was once just an idea someone wasn't sure they could pull off.

You do not need certainty. You need a next step.

For more support, resources, and real talk about building a sustainable private practice, head to zynnyme.com or listen to more episodes of Starting a Counseling Practice Success Stories.

Ready to Build a Practice That Actually Works for Your Life?

Whether you are brand new to private practice or rebuilding the one you have, you do not have to figure it out alone.

For more support, resources, and real talk about building a sustainable private practice, head to zynnyme.com or listen to more episodes of Starting a Counseling Practice Success Stories.

Key Takeaways for Therapists Building Affirming Practices

• You do not need a calling to start. You need a willingness to pay attention.

• When something keeps not fitting, the misfit is data. It is pointing at something.

• Niche reveals itself through curiosity, not strategy.

• Your business model has to match the clinical work you actually want to do.

• The real cost of business coaching is usually a handful of sessions, not the sticker price.

• Therapy should be transformative. So should the practice you build to deliver it.

• The peer community you choose sets your ceiling. Pick the one that normalizes growth.

Resources Mentioned in this Episode

• Irina's couples therapy practice: irinabaechlecounselingllc.com

• Emotionally Focused Therapy by Dr. Sue Johnson

• Hold Me Tight workshops

• Business School for Therapists: zynnyme.com

• Starting a Counseling Practice Success Stories podcast